bare metal rust

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

I'm working on my first restoration project, a 66 Mustang. I'm new to all these so i'm learning as i go. From the info i've gathered i figured out the first step was going to be stripping it down to bare metal, which hasn't been an easy task. I honestly didn't think it was gonna be that hard, and is taking me longer than i planned to remove all the paint and body filler. I devoted last weekend to it and it surely wasn't enough, I'm working around the clock trying to get rid of all the paint in ev'ry nook and crany, but rust is starting to appear, and there's also some rust spots. What should i do? Should i commit to stripping it all down? or should i prime what i can as soon as i can? what should i do about the rust? prime over it and deal with it later on or get to it now?
I 've also heard about rust encapsulators and another product called Metal Wash, which is supposed to delaye flash rust.
All your help will be highly appreciated, I'm a strong believer on doing things the right way, and i thought i was doing so, but it seems to be getting out of my hands. thanx in advance.

[sik_kreations]

I'm working on my first restoration project, a 66 Mustang. I'm new to all these so i'm learning as i go. From the info i've gathered i figured out the first step was going to be stripping it down to bare metal, which hasn't been an easy task. I honestly didn't think it was gonna be that hard, and is taking me longer than i planned to remove all the paint and body filler. I devoted last weekend to it and it surely wasn't enough, I'm working around the clock trying to get rid of all the paint in ev'ry nook and crany, but rust is starting to appear, and there's also some rust spots. What should i do? Should i commit to stripping it all down? or should i prime what i can as soon as i can? what should i do about the rust? prime over it and deal with it later on or get to it now?
I 've also heard about rust encapsulators and another product called Metal Wash, which is supposed to delaye flash rust.
All your help will be highly appreciated, I'm a strong believer on doing things the right way, and i thought i was doing so, but it seems to be getting out of my hands. thanx in advance.

if its just u ur gunna be hard pressed to do it all at once. what i would do is do one panel at a time, stripe the fender down all the way etch primer and put a urethane surfacer and it wont rust, put an epoxy down for added insurance

[the jester]

I agree one panel at a time

I'm in Ireland and restore stuff that in the states would be in the junkyard, dealing woth huge amounts of rust

one panel at a time get rid of all rust

here we use acid etch primer on bare metal then primer, maybe your enviro laws are different.

were into old VWs and Porsches if your interested:cool:
not unusual to replace the bottom 12 inches of some vehicles:D

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

the problem is that i stripped most of the car already, fenders, hood, doors, trunk. Most of the remaining paint is on tight spots, the door frames and there's some bodywork i'm trying to get rid of. I stripped it with aircraft remover, but there's many layers, it's a 40 year old car. And i've also been using an orbital sander, and a da sander. The problem is that i dedicated the weekend and it wasn't enough, during the week is very hard to get anything done, i live in the city (right next to NYC) and i'm blessed with a 3 car garage and a driveway, which are not that common in this area. But i'm surrounded by neighbors, I had the cops come the last 2 nights, they love the car and go nuts over the airbrushed stuff, but i still gotta call it a night.
By now i definitely gotta have rust on those panels, so i guess my question now is how to get rid of flash rust and previous rust holes. I appreciate your input and if i've known better i'd have done it one panel at a time.

[deetz58]

Okay, here we go. Flash rust shouldn't be a big problem, I would suggest you start doing one panel at a time right now. Forget about everthing else for now and start with a fender or whatever. The flash rust as you put it will sand off. Make sure you sand it plenty good as to reassure there is no rust left on the panel before you acid etch. Then continue with other primers etc and go onto a new panel. As far as previous rust, it has to go. The previous rust has to be replaced with new metal. In my opinion there is no other way to fix rust. Living here in MN where we use a ton of salt in the winters I have seen my fair share of rust repairs. If the rust on the panel is excessive or in an awkward spot I would suggest buying a new panel. Being the car you are working on is a mustang you should not have any problem finding replacement parts. Also as a tidbit of info, when you see a rust spot on the outside of the car that is for example the size of a quarter, it will be two or three times the size on the inside of the panel. Sometimes even bigger. This is just my opinion based on my experience. Hope it helps and keep us posted on your progress.

[Mike K]

FORGET THE ETCH PRIMER!!!
That junk is crap and OLD tech.
Go with EPOXY first over CLEAN bare metal.Then you have it SEALED properly.
Either blasting or 80 gt. scratch for best adhesion.
Most epoxy's over an etch is a BIG mistake.
Besides cost for MORE products you don't need.
Etch and filler's now days do not mix well and is a lousy base to build your hard work paint job on.
Etch primer will NOT seal the metal and if left uncoated will develop rust underneith. The word ACID should tell you something... Even covering it with a 2K primer won't stop moisture from being absorbed.
Filler WILL stick to epoxy with NO problem.
Get yourself a spot sandblaster for the tough areas. Stripper can get left behind in tight crevases and such and come back out later to bite you.
RUST never goes away. You either get rid of it or replace the metal/panel.
Sealing it or "converting" it will only be short term.
I don't mean to sound like an A-hole but there IS a right and wrong way to do QUALITY work and it requires a LOT of HARD work to do it RIGHT.
You need to do some MORE study of what your trying to do as you obviously want to do it RIGHT and etch primer to start with is WRONG period.
You want some good advice and procedures?
Keep looking here and try www.hotrodders.com. Body Exterior Forum. And www.autobody101.com site.
Excellent info and advice from true professionals.

Best of luck and it's NOT easy so keep at it and you'll be the better for it.

[deetz58]

I have to disagree with your comments on etch primer. I have used the stuff extensively with absolutely no problems. Old tech? Hasn't epoxy primers been around even longer? I am not saying that what you explained is wrong ,but it has been my experience that etch primer aka wash primer or acid etch primer whatever you want to call it, is a pretty good product and a standard in automotive industry. What do you think comes from the factory on current vehicles? epoxy? not. I don't want to sound like a A hole ,but you are saying that it etch is straight up wrong and this is far from the truth!

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

thanks a lot for your help. the websites are great, lots of info. and if sanding will remove flash rust i guess it ain't a big deal after all. if i figure out how to post some pics i will.

[Mike K]

Why do you think it RUSTED out to begin with?
If epoxy or E-Coat had been used back in the day,These prizes would still be in great shape today.
Manufactures use etch cause it's cheap and they could care less about the car lasting after the warranty period was out.
Collision shops along with insurance companys are finally seeing the light as well.
Spend some time on some restoration boards and you'll understand "why" etch is DEAD. Epoxy has come a LONG way from it's original form and is much cheaper and easier to use. Do some reasearch on salt spray test with etch vs. epoxy and then you tell me what you would prefer on YOUR resto you worked your a$$ off on to put back to pristine condition.
Then do some study on how the catylist used with 2 part fillers reacts with the acid in etch primer.
Use the junk if you like but after spending hrs and a lot of money preping,repairing the metal,I want something that will last and seal the metal from moisture as well as a solid foundation for any filler work.
Come forth from the cave brother. Etch is dead.:tup:

[corey]

I would have to agree with Mike, epoxy is the way to go for Kustom not etch. you can read it right in the HOK teck manual. Hok doesnt make an etch primer, there is a reason for that, etch sucks. like mike said, there is a right way and a wrong way to do quality work and it requires alot of work to do it right. epoxy for kustom all the way man.
Corey

[deetz58]

I will do some research and make some calls and get back to you with what I drum up!

[Madshadow]

I sandblast and epoxy prime everything that isn't plastic that goes through my shop. Always go back and touch up any sand thrus with epoxy as well. It's one of the key factors in my warrenty. There is a right and wrong way, epoxy is the only way to go.
-mcc

[deetz58]

Maybe Craig can give his input on this topic!????

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

yeah craig, i'm gonna paint the car with HOK, so i'm guessing my best bet 'd be to go with their direct to metal primer? what do you think?

[sik_kreations]

if u guys are talking about ppg dplf epoxies, ppg recommends an etch primer first. a buddy of mine who has a well known shop (been on overhaulin twice) even says the same stuff and he swears by epoxy. I also heard since it went lead free so did the bare metal adhesion, it sticks good but not as good as it can. im not sayin etch is the shit, it will rust without a urethane primer or epoxy topcoat on it, i see no reason y it shouldnt be used, added insurance if u ask me

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

another question for everybody, i stripped it down with aircraft remover, i've also used an orbital sander with 60 grit discs. Should i sand the bare metal with 220 and 400 to smooth out the scratches before primer?

[deetz58]

I wasn't saying etch is the shit either, but I do think it serves a purpose and believe it is far from "dead"

[Mike K]

It will be shortly.
Whoever thought you would get water paint to stick to metal as well?:evilg:
Hey, Use what you like, I'm just relaying what has been explained to me buy people that are WAY ahead of my skills and what technology is available.
Some people still paint with lacquer too.:lol:
As for the bare metal prep. 80 gt scratch is the norm for epoxy.60 may be a bit much. With 2 coats it will fill fine and the metal should be wiped down with pre cleaner till the rag wipes clean beforehand. Media blasting is perfect. I've been using the coal slag stuff as of late and the anchor pattern from it is excellent. It much nicer than silica sand and does not have the leftover grit like sand besides being MUCH safer to use.

[DocCyber]

hey great topic...........as usual there are lots of ways to skin a cat. myself i stay away from etch primers cause i blast everything and hate using acids i cant eat....hehehehe. technicly ive been told you need an atomic bond when going from metal to paint and thats an etch primer...at least i think thats the way i interprated the conversation...and thats truly and the best case senario but over the years ive found its over kill in the real world and a step that can be by-passed as long as you media blast or at least prep the metal with a great tooth etch with sand paper.

hey TAT........im doing a 66 also.......only im doing a complete restore.....i just got the body back from the media blasters and am in the process of turning it into a shelby......good luck with your project.....im getting the block back from the machine shop next week and am doing a 350+ HP re-build........going disk brakes.....paint will be black with deep pagan gold over flake rally stripes......ill show you mine if you show me yours...:)

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

i love the car doc. And although it's my first project, i'm using it as a learning experience. That means i want to learn ev'rything that car has to teach me, I won't cut no corners and do the best job i possibly can. I just finish setting up my garage, and there's still lots of work. I did floors walls and air compressed system, i'm still to build a sparaybooth and the heat is becoming a real issue these days.
Yours sounds sweet, i dream of pearl black and deep purple graphics. But right now i gotta worry about some rust holes. Let me ask you, what are you gonna prime yours with?

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

good luck with yours too!! we're gonna work on it all day, I'll try to post some pics.

[DocCyber]

im priming the car with a combination ppg-dp-90 epoxy..K-36 primer and polyester primer.but first im removing all the stock sheet metal i wont need then replacing all the stock sheet metal that was damaged or rusted over the years....floor pans, fire wall, inner fenders stuff like that..then im adding the shelby pieces....doing all the final fabricating.....so the entire interior will get the dp-90......some of the fabrication and molding will get the polyester then the entire car will be k-36 for the final block sanding...i like to use the K-36 straight with its kicker to be used as a fill primer...then ill use the K-36...tint it with color and use the dx kicker and use the 36 as a sealer...then im ready for color.....ive been doing this stuff for a long time and there is a ton of over kill in the business.....in theory you need everything the industry can offer today....but i learned this stuff a long time ago with limited resources and we where still doing pro work.........so use everything that out there then boil it down to what you like........youd be surprised what works when the industry is saying different

its all being documented for the owner and will be on my new web site doccybercustoms.com probably the first of the year.......im also doing a 66 charger with a 440 that i just shaved the handles straightened out the body...thats a complete ground up restor.......i havnt been airbrushing much lately......ill post some pics of me....the grease monkey...hehehehe.....with my hands in that 440......what a monster

the web site isnt up yet but here is a sneak peak..... http://doccybercustoms.com/storage/plain-Shop.html

[Mike K]

youd be surprised what works when the industry is saying different

AMHEN....

And more the opposite.
What they say WILL work,WON'T.

More and more rod builders are skipping 2K all together and just going epoxy.It builds about the same and most now days SAND so much easier even after cure.Then shoot a tinted reduced coat for sealer if you like and then color. Since I started blocking my epoxy first,it's really cut done on the 2K work. IMO, Unless you level the holes out to start with,your just building a deeper hole to fill later.
It's also an answer to f'glass.
You shoot both sides and you've sealed it up.Otherwise,glass keeps gassing out till forever i guess causing problems later down the road. Learned that from a Vette restorer. I believe it too as my glass hood on my truck has a recurring series of "areas" that keep popping back up after a few years and it's no doubt from it gassing out still. It will get epoxied this time and we'll see.

I'll be keeping an eye on it Doc.
I got a 69 'BEE/440 to do soon as I finish the Tank.

[DocCyber]

Mike.......im doing work for a rod builder now that wants nothing but old enamel single stage...he hates the base coat clear coat black on his low boyz and wants that old black gloss we used to get with single stage.....and his rods start at 80 grand......i just did 2 frames for him and its been awhile but that old single stage was a pleasure to spray......sometimes you forget how well the ol stuff did work.

and its true about the glass gassing..........we used to use a sherwin williams poulin based enamel which was tough as nails back in the day to seal the back of glass

[Mike K]

SS has a "warmth" to it that bc/cc does not. Kinda like old tube amps,got a sound NO resister can replicate. Or Analog recording boards. Digital is quick and got the tricks but it still don't have the "sound" of the old stuff.
I've been contemplating SS on the 'BEE. It's T3 Light Bronze Metallic and I'm afraid a bc/cc will make it "too" shiny. Some colors look great with all that pop but sometimes less IS more.

[DocCyber]

I agree....but unless youve been there and know the difference..where just blowin smoke out our ass to the younger guyz who grew up with uro clears.............but yea..............some colors are richer because you dont have to wade thru the wet look.

here is the stang all striped and naked..............

http//www.doccybercustoms.com/stang.jpg
http//www.doccybercustoms.com/stang-1.jpg

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

that's a beautiful sight Doc. i wish i was going there with mine. the website looks awesome too. let me ask you, what's the timeframe for that kind of project? and where could i get some single stage enamel? i'm painting mine with HOK but i'd like to spray a test panel, I'm 27 and i don't think i've ever seen a ss job.

[DocCyber]

Im looking at a 3 month turn around.......the drive train is just about ready for re-construction......the block is done..im looking for a 5 speed top loader and will be replacing the pumpkin.....i have most the pieces for the body and will be starting on that next week......then its just reconditioning and finding all the new stuff to put er back together....looking forward to this one.....this stang is short and sweet.

the charger will be a challenge..that is one big boat.

the web site is a work in progress....i dont have much time for it but i am working on it at night now. Thanks for the compliments. Im trying to portray my shop in the right light.......cause its not just a paint shop but a custom shop where we do just about everything from every era

any paint supply house will have single stage.....just ask them about single stage...there is a lot of it out there.

the SS is not that hard to work with and its a shoot and forget paint.

[Brian Lynch]

There is not one answer that fits all cases.
They have both been around a long time. In fact a wash primer (a primer containing acid in order to inhibit corrosion) is an updated version of the old metal prep. Used properly, that is in conjunction with a urethane surfacer, they work well enough to satisfy the requirements of an OEM style finish. They are quicker than most epoxies and provide an appropriate build for the job of "refinishing" work. That is why they have become the default choice for the collision industry. They are not used at any OEM that I know of, however, the combination of acid etch/urethane surfacer is meant to mimic the OEM combination of Phosphate/E-coat/urethane sealer.
BTW E-coat refers to an application method. Many types of materials can be used for E-coating such as epoxies, urethanes, and even low grade alkyd enamels.
The House of Kolor system does indeed start with an epoxy. The variations of substrates, high build requirements, and availability of time, make it a better choice for the custom painter.
Restoration is more like custom in the sense that time is not an issue yet the best achievable result is. High build, block sanding, and long term durability are top priorities even though the color selected may be simple in order to match a stock color of years gone by. The restoration crowd has practiced this for some time.

[DocCyber]

Brians right......most of us custom guyz dont work in bodyshop conditions so our approach is differnt then the guy who is mimicking factory finishes.....high build blockable primers is realy where us custom guyz start ....now there are many applications and situations on the same vehicle, so your not just blanketing everything with the same stuff.........some parts of the car just need an etch primer.....other parts need high build polyesters........on that 66 stang im doing......there will be lead work..bondo work....high build urethane primers.high build polyester primers and epoxy.....but that car is on a rotisery and is striped nacked.....you wont find a job like this in most bodyshops...this is a custom app start to finish.

I just did a set of 34 fenders that had a ton of work blocking making the black paint look like glass.........but the owner wanted a glossy textured look under the fenders.........so the bottoms got epoxy......then a texturing paint then gloss black.......total complete opposite ends of the surface preperation. Again.........differnt approach to materials and finish on the same fender

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

thanx for that info guys,is really helping me understand a little better what goes on under the topcoats. I'm an artist, i paint pretty much with anything from oils and acrylics, to latex, body paint, tattooing ink and now urethanes too. Substrates range from illustration board, canvas and walls to skin, and now also metal. Although i started with just graphics, i believe the most impact is achieved with a full custom paintjob, and that starts with the primer, or should i say primers. I'm very happy i joined the forum and really appreciate you guys takin the time to share your knowledge and experience.
Based on all this i ordered Hok's KD2000 today, but i still got a couple questions, what are the uses of polyester primers? and, i'm almost done stripping, is looking good (pics are comin'),except for some rust holes, i'm thinking on buying a tig welder to take care of that, i have no experience, but u gotta learn someday. I'm gonna prime the panels that are good with kd 2000, so i can focus on getting rid of the rust. after priming i'll start the bodywork also, now, after this point would u guys switch to a different primer?, like a urethane surfacer?
thanx again, I've also ordered a dvd on bodywork and if anybody can recommend any good books on the subject it'd be highly appreciated along with your answers.

[Brian Lynch]

You're welcome.

There is no need to switch from KD2000 to another product. If you are intending to use the House of Kolor products the Ko-Seal goes on next. If you need to re-apply the KD2000 as you do you bodywork/blocking then go ahead. The final sanding will be in 320-400 grit. The KP2CF and the KD2000 are epoxies that are designed to be used for building and sanding, They are not like the typical epoxy that are usually designed for fleet and wet on wet type application.
Jon Kosmoski has a couple of books out there. He does complete projects in each and covers the filling and body work pretty well. They are at Coast if you want to look at the titles you can at www.HouseofKolor.com or the www.CoastAirbrush.com site.
Polyester primers are "sprayable body filler". Use them like you would regular/spreadable filler. No wet sanding, no leaving it in the weather, no painting directly over it, do not appy over any 1K, or reversable substrate. And clean your gun quickly!

Brian

[DocCyber]

TAT.........Brian perty much summed it up.....juse one thing to add....learn from someone who does custom applications where the finish has to be right and dont learn from a production bodyshop guide.

2 differnt worlds with 2 diffent objectives......im not slammin the production bodyshop guyz.......just saying there are 2 diffrernt objectives being meet. ones production one is custom.......they both have there strengths....the custom guyz take it to the next level and sometimes that means a differnt approach from the beginning.

the polyester approach i use is to lock down the bondo and stabalize the shrinkage..i do that with polyester primers which is like Brian stated a sprayable bondo........so the spreadable bondo goes on soft which allows you to shape it the sprayable goes on hard to give it a shell that wont shrink......very important when doing very sensative molding with bondo where you cant afford any swelling from bondo absorbibg reducers..the polyester locks it down tight.........i also like to use the polyester because you can liquid strip on top of it which keeps any cool molding from having to be re-done......kind of important on chopper parts when you molding in fenders.....twisting frames and doing the real cool shaping.

[Mike K]

i also like to use the polyester because you can liquid strip on top of it which keeps any cool molding from having to be re-done......

Doc, I think you just lost the youg man.
Me too for some part. Liquid strip??
Not trying to be argumenative, but I've painted over cured,finish sanded poly primer many times with no issues.
Evercoat even states this on the can & tech sheet.
So, Why not?

[DocCyber]

There are times when you cant sand...........3d molding for instance...or a nice twisted down tube that you spent hours welding and twisting rod then molded into shape........those are times when a nice liquid strip...a scuffy with lac tyhinner will clean up that very nicly...that brings you right to the poly with your nice tight crisp edge in tac...........i say that because ive been down the sand it off route only to ruin....so when i discoverd poly........wow.........problem solved

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

thanx again for the info, is helping me a lot to get a better understanding of what goes on in the undercoats. this is the first car i've ever stripped or worked on, and it's gonna be my first full paintjob. i learned some bodywork at a production shop, i'd go on the weekends and work on my own car, and they'd gimme pointers and directions, tell me what to use. i fixed my front fender, they taught me how to use a slide hammer, then grinder, bondo, da sander, block sanding, then a different bondo, and at that time i didn't even get to prime it myself. that was a couple years ago, then i finally started airbrushing and not to long ago i got my first garage. i was airbrushing in my house, and my landlord likes this stuff so much that he gave me the 3 car garage. I epoxy coated the floors, waterproofed the walls, did the air-compressed system myself (80 gal. two stage), from the 220v installation to the piping with galvanized pipe with the drain traps and slopes, and i got a Devilbiss dad-500, that's the best i could afforrd at the time. i hadn't even finished setting the garage up and i came across these 66 Mustang and i couldn't let it go. i wish i could learn from somebody in the custom industry. That's definitely what i wanna do, full custom paintjobs. That's why i'm doing it as a learning experience, i like to know what and why. And i take it one step at a time, trying to learn everything the car has to teach me. and I just got my first DA, my first Orbital, first kd2000. a lot of firsts, i guess is time i order my first poly primer and start seeing what it's all about. i definitely got lost in some of the uses for the poly, but that's obviously from my lack of experience, surely when the time comes we'll figure it out. i still have one more question, what's the story with urethane surfacers? wht are the uses and differences with the other 2?

[DocCyber]

TAT.......primers are just vehicles that allow you to apply a couple of critical steps in your paint process....the create water barriers.....they give you filler material for sand scratches.....they give you sealing properties.

now all these applications are found in differnt material products...like lacquer...urethanes .....enamels..... so basicly to understand primers is to find out what there designed for....barriers/fillers/sealers..and then what paint system..lacs/uros/enamels.

priming is a basic concept with a few rules.......so urethane surfacers are just materials designed for urethanes..or have a urethane base to start with....they fill or seal.

the difference between fill or seal is........the fillers go on thick so you can block out a smoother surface for base coats..sealers protect under coats for sensativity and give you a wet on wet application...meaning.....a wet on wet primer allows you to prime and then base coat all in the same application.

now i use the urethane sealers to color coat.....meaning.....ill tint the sealer with a color that closly matches the base color so i get better coverage...so ill use a fill uro to block and get smooth.then ill use a sealer uro to tint for the base which is a wet on wet application.

[Mike K]

Thanks Doc. I'll add that one to the trick bag.
Couple of things about the poly primers,
Your build is much thicker with it and it cures faster than most 2K primers as it uses the same hardner as f'glass. Like Brian said,You DON'T want to leave it in the gun long after spraying. I made that mistake once and almost lost a gun cause this stuff cures like concrete.Shrinkage is less as well. You generally shoot poly with a 2.0 or 2.2 tip as this stuff is thick and you WANT the build. Really nice for rust pitted stuff or trouble spots that just won't straighten out. It can be reduced,usually with some quality Acetone if you have a smaller tip but the build takes longer with more coats.Be sure to ask or check the tech sheet on whatever you get.
Some don't like the Evercoat Feather Fill G2 but I've had no problem with it. It sands fairly easy and locks up great. Doc likes some stuff called Mortons Elminator which is probbly the hardest available. Marhide makes some that is good as well. It's also cheap compaired to some 2K uro primers so considering your sanding "most" of it off anyway it's a little easier on the pocket book.

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

I'm still stripping, and as soon as the kd2000 gets here i'll start the panels that are ready for priming, and also the war on rust. i won't move on till i eliminate the rust. then i'll prime those and then i'll begin the bodywork. i still owe u the pics and i'll stick with it, as long as it takes.

[DocCyber]

hey TATT.............here is the stang with the kit im adding

http://www.doccybercustoms.com/stang-2.jpg
http://www.doccybercustoms.com/kit.jpg

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

beautiful sight Doc, gives me the goosebumps. it's like taboo for me, i've never taken an engine out of car, is the first time i stripped one down to bare metal, is like exploring virgin lands for me, you just opend another dimension for me. I just got the garage and this car was thrown at me, and i couldn't let it go. They signed me up on the grounds that it was a 66 with matching numbers OEM, blah, blah, they just wanted me to do a sugar coat, kandy apple red, and since i've got the space now, the compressed air system, and a beautiful car i figured i wanna do things right from the start, and at the time it meant going down to bare metal, and so i did. stil waiting on the kd-2000. i'm discovering a whole new world and the chance to do it right from the first project, so i'm gonna take some pics and if you could look at them and point me in the right direction i 'd highly appreciate it. I'm grateful that i have the chance to work on such a beautiful car and i would hate to miss the opportunity to do art. I'm sure you're the happiest man on earth right now. that baby is looking beautiful. i don't even know what could be done with mine, but i'm willing to go the whole ten yards. i gotta post some pics, it's just that with school, tattooing full-time, airbrushing;and i did my first christmas window painting this week, i didn't even know what the heck i was getting myself into, it was cold as hell and it was no joke. i'm gonna post those pics too so you guys can laugh at me. kudos to the window painters, try to airbrush frozen paint... with a frozen finger...

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

ok, here's some pics, if anybody has any suggestions they'll be highly appreciated.thanxhttp://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/TATTOOHOBBIT/SANY0077.jpg

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/TATTOOHOBBIT/SANY0073.jpg

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/TATTOOHOBBIT/SANY0075.jpg

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/TATTOOHOBBIT/SANY0109.jpg

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r77/TATTOOHOBBIT/SANY0113.jpg

[deetz58]

Well back to the etch argument! My experience with etch and my advice given about etch was just reinforced. How might you ask? Tonight I managed to catch a bit of overhaulin'. They were building a chevelle and I was fortunate enough to catch the part where they sprayed the car with etch primer and then with a urethane surfacer. Once again I am not stating that etch is the greatest ,but if it is good enough for the youngest inductee to the hot rod hall of fame, it is good enough for me! I would also believe that this would put an end to the "etch is for collision shops and not for customs" argument posted by a couple individuals. If Foose isn't building customs and spraying custom paint then who really is?

[DocCyber]

deetz........i hope your not saying because Foose does it we have to.....i certainly dont wear the same cloths because he does nor do i cut my hair the same .....although i did cut my hair recently....hehehehe.

Look.........just factor in the reasons why you use an etch primer and be careful what you put on top of it...its an acid....Foose and company are trained proffessionals and know how to apply what there using.

on a second note ive watched there 1 week builds and quite frankly have seen them rush thru paint and body work that was questionable......but there working for a tv company...........it takes Foose years to build some of his nicer cars.

Ive custom painted hundreds of vehicles and never used etch primer but a couple times so the only argument is......know what your spraying....and why......personaly i think etch primer is a great tool when you need it.

TAT............man your not that far from a total restor.....those cars are easy tear downs. go ahead and fix the body...i would take a DA to it with a soft pad and some 80 grit....put the da on grind and work those panels...patch in where you have to and use the body filler where you have to then shoot polyester primer on all the bondo.....then epoxy the rest....once you get to that stage i would urethane the entire car and block it for base coat.

thats how i do it..........the 80 grit gives you a great tooth for welding and bondo....the poly will lock down the bondo.....the epoxy will seal everything and the urethane will give you a nice surface to block........ive dine that hundreds of times with great results..........thats one way of doing it.

[Skids]

what a fantastic thread! Lots of ground covered here....thanky!

[deetz58]

Doc- I am not saying you have to do anything. I am simply stating that foose builds some pretty killer customs and I believe I stated that if Foose uses etch it is good enought FOR ME. I understand you may have such and such experience painting cars and customs ,but do not underestimate others experience. I have also painted hundreds of jobs both collision and custom for several shops for years and now I am able to do it on my own.

I also understand that product knowledge is a huge factor in what is used for a paint job. I understand all of that. I just want people to recognize that there is not just one best thing and like you stated know what your spraying and why.

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

but doc, should i take engine, interiors, ev'rything out, what about fenders?tires? i did take the windshield and the back one, but windows are still there. i see u took off ev'rything in yours. Of course you're turning yours into a Shelby and putting a killer engine in it and i'm sure you're throwing a sick paint job int the mix too. I guess my question would be if it's worthed to keep diggin deeper in mine? originally i was planning on selling the car, it's the one with the small engine, but i don't see much fun in restoring it to it's original state. i'd rather customize it and keep it for myself, so i guess i'm wondering what's available as far as body kits, engine, tires, etc for my 66, that i could consider now, or modifications or even replacement parts such as doors, etc.. i guess i just haven't been around, and don't know as much about cars as most of you do, but damn i'd like to learn. i've just got the itch and a car to work on.
and doc i just received the kd-2000, coud i use it on top of the polyester primer? i read on hok's website that's a hybrid of epoxy and acrylic polymers. and would the one panel at a time approach be ok or would you recommend working on the whole car at once? i still gotta deal with the rust holes, so i was thinking on priming the panels that are ok first. i still don't have a welder and i don't know how soon i'll be able to afford one.

[DocCyber]

TATT.........i would consult Brian for the HOK steps or Craig......i dont use HOK . The steps i use are things ive been doing a long time using PPG products. That 66 can be worth some good cash if you did it right.....i just bought a 67 notch back. gonna throw a flair kit on and paint, thats it for the body....gonna throw a 351 cleveland in it with a 5 speed top loader....the car is mint...i just put disk all the way around and the car should sell for at least 15 gs..........those ol stangs are good money if you tear em down and build em up....heres what i do with old rides......i customize them so that when im done any potential buyer will see great value in the build.....that means ground up restore....why......because thats the sale that has no bitch factors in it...........if you touched and built every part of the job and made it better then orig or at least as good........you have removed the bitch factor. I want someone to look at my car and say.........wow.....everything was done right......damn he even did this and he did that......that pulls the wallet out faster then the job that you got lazy on.......nothing worse then someone saying.....yea the car is nice but the suspension looke un-touched......or.....the instriment cluster could use some work.....that puts hesitation in a buyer and most times they move on.........id rather put a ton of money in and find the buyer that recognized that and cant find a reason why he shouldnt buy the vehicle......ive sold everything ive ever built.

deetz.........i hear what your saying.....you will find in my post a lot what i dont do as well as what i do because some guy who is just starting out might think they have to do something because of what they hear or read......yea we all do things diffently........but telling people what you dont do carries a lot of weight also especialy if you have established yourself as an authority in the business.......if some one says.......hey i use etch primer religously.....and then someone says.....hey i never use it.....and they both are experts in there field.....the new guy can say.....well i cant afford the etch right now and feel confident he made a good choice.....and yet that still leaves the door open for the next time.

i flip the coin a lot in my post and sometimes become the devils advocate........its healthy on a forum

[Brian Lynch]

Yes, you can apply the KD2000 oer a polyester but don't get crazy about the prep. Treat the polyester like the body work whore it is. sand it with 100-120 grit so the b work is good and straight. Smooth does not cut it, does'nt get it straight and will keep the KD200 from adhering well.
If you do a panel at a time don't let the primed panels sit outside. The sun can wreck the KD200 and the moisture will wreck the polyester.

[Mike K]

sometimes become the devils advocate...
That would be my job Doc. Hehehe.
I don't try to purposely piss people off but I have a straight forward type personality and for good reason. I just hate beating around the bush or wadding thru a mile of crap to get the TRUTH. I want to KNOW the REAL deal and HOW stuff actually works. I aggravate people till I get the truth and sometime,when you piss people off enough they get to actually thinking and realize that I'm really helping them and me.You don't get good by keeping your mouth shut. If you want to KNOW something,you have to ask and ask and ask again. I find that no reply or getting po'd with me generally means they don't REALLY know either.
With the advent of the Internet, Information is easily obtained with a few clicks and often time,it's passed on from internet "experts" who just repeat what they have read.Just because "someone" says it's great,does not mean I'm buying it. Foose included.
I want to use the BEST possible product or procedure cause i hate doing something over from product failure. I screw up enough as it is and when the product goes wrong, I have to know it was not ME that did it. People get into such a rut with products and procedures that they can mindlessly apply and don't bother to try anything else even though it will be a BETTER product for them. "This is what I use" cut in stone and they won't even try anything else. I by no means "Know it all" or even "Been there,done it all" but I know what I have done and used and the resulting failures.
This is called Experience.
I hope I've not made anyone mad but rather made them think about it.:cool:

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

i agree with asking all the questions you have to till you have a different number of answers and you can make a choice of what makes sense to you, then try it and you'll have a reference point to compare with you own experience. And some people here really seem to know their shit and yet they're very humble, but their work and credentials speak for themselves. I'm so grateful that these guys have taken time of their busy schedules to share their knowledge and gimme a better understanding of the undercoats. I was very ignorant , and still are, but the more you learn makes you realize how little you know. still a lot to learn. thank you guys. i'm gonna attempt a full resto and see how it goes, take ev'rything out and do it right. i'm sure the deeper i go the more i'll learn, so as i said i'm willing to go the whole ten yards, i'm sure i'm pretty annoying with my ignorance but i'm trying hard to catch up as fast as i can. it's my first garage.

[remm]

Tattoo H,
here's a site to check out to get the juices flowing on what you could do to your stang .www.mustangplus.com .like doc said they make just about anything you could need for the car so don't be afraid to jump in ,its only time and money. hehhee,i have some of one and none of the other. I have a basketcase 68 to do the same thing to so I'll keep you posted on any progress I make .I have yet to start on her .In the process of gettin heat in the garage also. I have just finish building a cobra kit w/ a friend of mine.
now that its done and gone mine garage is mine once more.

[TATTOOHOBBIT]

wow, that cobra looks sweet!!! i'm resuming work on the mustang tomorrow, i went away for the holidays. thanx for the tip, cool website, lots of kewl shit.
question for ev'rybody, i just have regular bondo in my garage, any recommendations? happy new year!!!

[remm]

evercoat "rage gold" is the only thing I've used ,but, was very happy w/ it